Hey everyone, OtakuScott here. We’re at the 2 week break for Christmas, so I figured I should say something. But not something relevant to progress or anything. Just my opinion on the ban list (found below):
Scout
- Soda Popper
- Bonk
- Mad Milk
- Sandman
- Atomizer
Soldier
- Liberty Launcher
- Cow Mangler
- Reserve Shooter
- Righteous Bison
- Battalions Backup
- Disciplinary Action
Demoman
- Loch n Load
- Persian Persuader
- Ullapool Caber
Heavy
- Natascha
- Brass Beast
- Tomislav
- Buffalo Steak Sandvich
- Sandvich
- Gloves of Running Urgently
- Fists of Steel
Engineer
- Wrangler
- Short Circuit
- Gunslinger
- Frontier Justice
- Jag
Medic
- Vita-Saw
- Solemn Vow
Sniper
- Sydney Sleeper
- Machina
- Jarate
Spy
- Enforcer
Completing weapon sets is also not allowed.
Now, this seems like a pretty solid list. Scout, Soldier, Demoman, Heavy, Engineer, Medic, Sniper and Spy. Wait a second, that’s only eight classes. As I recall, TF2 has nine classes. Yes folks, that’s right: there are no banned Pyro weapons. Although many people disagree with me ("stop crying you pansy"), I feel that Pyro (with all his unlocks) make him a very over-powered class. Now, pause your bitching: hear me out. The typical loadout used by Pyros is Degreaser, Flaregun, Axtinguisher. Each of these weapons aren’t so bad on their own, but together they create a ridiculous combo. Let’s break each of these weapons down.
Firstly, all Pyro primaries have the airblast now. An airblast will, not only reflect projectiles, grant minicrits on all reflected projectiles. The degreaser increases weapon switch speed, so you can quickly switch to the degreaser (no matter what weapon you’re holding) and reflect the projectile back at the enemy. Furthermore, Pyro airblasts have the ability to effectively nullify an Uber or Kritz push. If a Soldier comes marching in with a Kritzkreig charge, the Pyro can just reflect the rockets back at the combo. An uber can also be juggled by a Pyro (probably stuff you encounter daily in pubs).
Next, we have the flaregun. Oh boy. This thing. I honestly hate it. You now can’t even outrun a Pyro, because if you try, he’ll just send a flaregun at you which will crit if you are on fire. That’s right folks, critical hit. If you’re not being healed by a Medic, you’re dead. It requires it’s own prediction, but still. This isn’t a Sniper or Spy folks, he just has to hit you with something that is easy to hit with. It’s like granting the Scout critical hits if he’s hit you once already.
Finally, we have the Axtinguisher. Dear God why? Why I ask you?! Now, the Axtinguisher isn’t that bad on it’s own, but of course with the degreaser, if a Pyro is within 10 feet of you, you’re dead. It crits you if you’re on fire. You’re dead and there’s no chance of survival. The problem is, you have no time to react. Sure, the Pyro got close enough and didn’t die. But how else are you supposed to kill him? Fire rockets? Nope he’ll reflect them. Shoot at him with your shotgun? Sure, but you better hope you hit him with 84 each time. It becomes a difficult struggle to deal with him.
So we have 2 Pyro weapons that grant critical hits if the opponent is on fire, and 1 that deals Minicrits on reflect. Every single Pyro weapon used in this combination has a chance to deal more damage then the regular weapons. Of course, playing Pyro means sacrificing one of your other classes, but with this set, Pyro actually becomes a viable option to use in 6v6. No other class we allow has guaranteed crits that is also a viable option to run permanently. The Spy has crits from behind with his backstab, but he can’t contribute to a fight much. It pretty much gives your team one less man. The Sniper, which gives you crits on headshots, can snipe out people from far away, but can’t do anything up close (most of the time...). You could actually incorporate a Pyro into your team’s strategy, but of course most people would think you’re just messing around. You can’t be taken seriously if you run a 24/7 Pyro (or any offclass for that reason). What’s next? Are we gonna give Pyro a weapon that grants him 2x cap speed and Scout run speed? I can see it coming.
The issue with Pyro is that it’s supposed to be an ambushing class. Not a combat class that will rampage through along with your Soldiers and Demos. Pyro should be a situational class. Whether it be to blast people off the point, or keep spam pressure down, the Pyro should have limited used. If any of these weapons was to be banned in ESEA, it should be the degreaser because the degreaser alone makes it so that the Pyro can effectively combat any class. He outclasses the Soldier, Demoman and Scout with this set. Sure, you can counter him and kill him. A scout can fight off a Soldier, even though the Soldier has a clear advantage. It’s based on skill. The Pyro set containing the Degreaser, Flaregun and Axtinguisher cause sthe Pyro to outclass the three other classes on the team in most situations. How does a Soldier kill a Pyro? Switch to shotgun. But even then, the Pyro can still kill you with 2 flare shots, where the Soldier might take 3-4 shotgun shots to kill. Demos and Scouts are already outclassed by the Pyro as is, so there’s no comment there. However, the Pyro’s set makes it even more difficult for a Scout to counter. One DM technique applied by Scouts is called weapon harassing. Moving close to a a Pyro to make him switch to his Flamethrower, and then quickly jumping out of the way. A Pyro with the triple threat set (see what I did there?) allows the Pyro to switch weapons faster than the Scout can move out of the way. Once again, Demo is pretty much boned if he’s rushed by a Pyro, but his Soldier should be able to help him. This set can nullify most Soldier’s attempts to defeat a Pyro. Of course it’s still possible to kill him, but it causes you to have to give up your rockets to avoid killing yourself and teammates. The biggest solution to this is to just ban the degreaser. This should be done next season. I mean, seriously guys. We didn’t ban a single Pyro weapon?
Comments
This weapon ban list is quite extensive. When I look at all those bans I see a community trying desperately to hold onto a TF2 which was released in 2007. I see the same thing happening again with this pyro discussion. Pyro sucked in 2007 and thus has been barely used in 6s over the years. Since it was never viable and nobody used it, none of the weapons needed to be banned. After a series of upgrades he has become more viable and the classic 6s minded philosophy comes into play. Since a different class has become actually viable in a match, there must be something wrong so weapons need to be banned to a point where the pyro is not viable again. It's really the same old philosophy which protects the 2 soldier, 2 scout, 1 demo, 1 medic format in 6s.
Also, how will an official decision be made on this?
There are definitely some situational uses for the pyro that might cause you to think that it's too strong. Defending badlands last, you can potentially stuff an uber coming in top by repeatedly airblasting it, and even if they come in bottom, you can still knock soldiers to the low ground or block some demo spam. It's a good choice here, but take it out to yard and you can't cap like a scout or hold corner like a soldier (unless the other team obliges you and tries to shoot rockets rather than just killing you with shotty); all you can really do is hope for a kill on someone wandering through house alone. Hence, it remains a utility class — sometimes good, often bad.
See, just because someone tells you that something is some way what proof does it offer that what they say is true? Sure, the pyro has become an offensive class- and, frankly, I consider ambush an offensive maneuver, but what I said is that it is not a combat class, not that it was not an offensive class.
I would like to direct your attention to the official classification of the Pyro: "offense". The Pyro was intended to be a combat class from the day of its inception.
Quoting OtakuScott:
I know the Phlogistinator is a weapon that was released quite recently, but come, now. This weapon is the only one I believe should be banned. I trust it is not the case that CommFT articles have to submitted six days prior to their being published.
In response to your article as a whole, I completely disagree with most every point. No, the Pyro is not overpowered, and this comes from a helpless Medic. Yes, the skill ceiling for Pyro is nice and high, but the skill floor is much higher than, say, the Soldier's. It takes a Pyro of significantly greater skill than the Soldier he is fighting to execute a reliable kill.
In an essence, one of the real keys right now that makes pyro much more viable as an opportunity is the ban list itself. Notably, you ban a lot of weapons that just are very core anti-dg/flare style. Out of the bans, the current notable ones that can hurt a dg/flare style that are just banned flat out I'll list below:
Scout:
-Bonk (Somewhat)
-Mad Milk (Inherent)
-Atomizer (Somewhat inherent)
Soldier:
-Liberty Launcher (Assuming they're relatively untrained)
Demoman:
-Loch n Load (Untrained)
-Caber
Heavy:
- Natascha
- Tomislav
- Buffalo Steak Sandvich
- Sandvich
- Gloves of Running Urgently
Engineer:
- Gunslinger
Sniper:
- Jarate
I specifically bolded the enigneer and heavy ones for a reason. These classes as a whole give pyros much harder times (Gunslinger), and the sheer amounts of bans for these two classes (plus the bans on throwables) give the pyro in general more capabilities. In short, the current ban list overall bans antipyro.
You guys dodged some major bullets due to the overall idiocy that exists amongst 6s players for classes outside of their general scope.
The detonator for a while was stupidly, stupidly overpowered, and if someone actually utilized it correctly, they would have flat out slaughtered teams. Sticky detonation+Crit switch damage+Uber build capability+able to get to spire and enemy crates on badlands pretty quickly? You guys are lucky that they fixed critswitch recently.
With the way the pyro has changed, it's obvious he is no longer an ambush class, both in style played and in efforts to work with him. Saying he's an ambush class just isn't correct since he has gotten the airblast.
I've tried 6s as pyro. I teach people stuff to do when they try it. It's obnoxious as hell to deal with a pyro, but the pyro can be shut down pretty easily. I don't get though why you are so stuck to the old core. Let the core change?
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